Talk:Tenor horn

Wikibooks/wikipedia

I'm on a kick of brass, I'm sorry.

Wouldn't the little guide be better suited to wikibooks? Just a question, do me no harm? Bizznot

Quibbles

naming

In the US and Germany the name tenor horn is identical to baritone horn as well as the Tuba and euphonium.

Really? Perhaps this sentence could be removed without harm. Jwoehr (talk) 06:19, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right; that doesn't make any sense at all. Deleted. WeisheitSuchen (talk) 12:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not planning a major edit, but it makes perfect sense, it is just a little ambiguous: In a German Band (e.g. Blaskapelle) the tenor horn is in Bb, has the same nominal range as a baritone (or baryton) but is smaller bore and plays the higher part. (It is also traditionally oval, with rotary valves. See https://gebr-alexander.de/en/portfolio-item/bb-tenor-horn-%c2%b7-model-145/ ) In a "fin de siecle" period American band, the terminology is usually "Eb horn" for an instrument like this: ( https://archon.library.illinois.edu/?p=digitallibrary/digitalcontent&id=9076 ) and there is no tenor horn - the Bb instrument is a baritone or euphonium. (The terms are largely synonymous in THIS context and tend to fall between the British baritone and euphonium in size and sound.) And the British band context is as described in the article. I think the article could be improved by at least mentioning that the term is ambiguous.

alto vs tenor

The reason this was done is that in British brass bands the E♭ cornet is referred to as the soprano, the B♭ cornet as the alto (unsaid but implied), the E♭ horn as the tenor, the small-bore B♭ horn, formerly the tenor horn, became the baritone, the baritone mysteriously disappeared from the Saxhorn lineup, and so on. The name tenor could apply only to one instrument, of course, and it had been reassigned to the E♭ horn. Sometimes the name is shortened to just E♭ horn to avoid any confusion.

This does not seem to be accurate. First of all, the whole "It Came From The Saxhorn" thing is possibly a mere digression in that it emerges again and again in web discussion but seems to be left largely to the side by the professors. More importantly, as Assoc. Prof. John Erickson of Arizona State University points out:

The term alto horn seems to be used more to refer to the older models of the instrument that were used in bands in general, not modern, British-style brass band instruments. These older instruments were typically a little smaller bore (especially around the neck of the bell), were mated with smaller bore mouthpieces, and blended a bit better with trumpets and trombones. Modern E-flat tenor horns in contrast tend to be a little larger bore and are designed to use larger bore mouthpieces. Tonally they are intended specifically to blend with modern cornets and Euphoniums in a brass band setting. It should also be noted that a hundred years ago “Solo Altos” were also produced that were basically the same instrument but in a bell front design, not unlike modern marching mellophone, pitched in E-flat.

Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 06:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not convinced Erickson is talking about the naming history. If he refuted the "it came from the saxhorn family" argument directly, I'd agree with that, but I don't think saying where it comes from is a digression if it's talking about the naming. How the creator of the instrument named it seems quite relevant, actually. But maybe we should have both explanations included in the article if there are conflicting opinions on the matter. WeisheitSuchen (talk) 12:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Good points. I have edited the material, removing some prose flourishes and some irrelevancies such as the comparison of the bore size of UK vs US baritone horns and the euphonium. I think it reads clearer now and conveys just as much verifiable information as before. Do you agree? Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 05:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks clearer to me; even just tightening up the text helps a lot. Nicely done! WeisheitSuchen (talk) 11:47, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Disagree - bore size is definitely relevant. Mind you, it doesn't need a great deal of detail, but simple comparisons are helpful.

Thanks for the feedback Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 05:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

solo horn?

Solos for the alto horn are very occasional, and are usually taken by the solo horns.

What's a "solo horn"? I'm not arguing; I'm asking for clarification inline in the text or via a link. I think the author meant "an alto horn shaped like and played horizontally facing forward like a mellophone" Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 05:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Cleared this up, "solo horn" was mentioned early and defined late in the article, so I collated all the history and morphological stuff and put it before the reference to "solo horns" taking the solos. Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 05:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

History section

Currently reads

Other saxhorns include the baritone horn.

Style question: Having mentioned and linked to saxhorn in the introductory sentence of History, this statement seems either superfluous (i.e. they can go to saxhorn if they want to know about more saxhorns) or inadequate (i.e., what about the other saxhorns?). Should it be removed, or expanded, or left as-is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaxdelaguerre (talk • contribs) 06:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Commented out offending passage with a brief explanation. If no one is bothered or takes some other action, in a month I'll delete it. Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 04:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it makes sense the way you did it. Maybe that sentence made more sense in a previous version of the section, but it's better without now. WeisheitSuchen (talk) 07:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 15:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

RE: Wikihow

yeah... this article should be revised, the information is "too specific" concerning technique. It downright has nothing to do with technique, but rather with "how to start playing it" (more or less...). Maybe someone could write something about how the mouthpiece relates to other, more common mouthpieces, such as that of the tenor trombone (or how about the alto trombone?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nicholasnice (talk • contribs) 03:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

Playing Technique 'Guide'

The paragraph of numbered points in the Playing Technique section is written like a 'beginner's guide to playing'. This should be changed, or as suggested before, moved to somewhere more appropriate. Mickthefish 16:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I am taking this section out, as it has hardly any reason to be here. This information isn't anything that pertains only to the alto horn, it pertains to all brass. A link could be placed at the bottom, but it shouldn't be on this page. PhorkPhace (talk) 02:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Genis Sage

Call me ignorant, but I don't see any correlation between the Tales of Symphonia character and the alto horn. The word "genis" doesn't even appear in the article. So, just out of curiosity, why on Earth does "Genis" redirect to the Alto horn page and not the Tales character? 216.36.7.39 22:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• I think it's because Genis is the Italian name for Alto Horn. TrumpetMan202 21:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Peck horn

An editor has removed my contribution that "peck horn" is an alternate name for the alto horn. I first became aware of this instrument when a line in The Music Man mentioned "peck horns". Since I expected others might be interested in finding what a "peck horn" is, and since this is probably the most commonly known name for the instrument among the general public, I thought it was worth mentioning the name in this article.

I'm fine if someone wants to mark the name "peck horn" as "slang", but it seems worthy of mentioning it. Seitz (talk) 04:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It's listed in the section under "Naming Issues." Here's the exact quote: "In the U.S., it is colloquially known as the "peck horn". This name is mentioned in The Music Man." Does that address your concern? WeisheitSuchen (talk) 16:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it does. I saw the edit, and didn't notice that paragraph was still present. Sorry for the false alarm. Seitz (talk) 04:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Recently added further citations to that colloquial usage. Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 04:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Players

Django Bates playing the tenor horn? I've looked at his page and although he's a great musician, it seems as though the tenor horn is a bit of a joke to him. Has he recorded or composed anything that we could access? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruce Myers (talk • contribs) 11:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Someone added the following:

Tim Girling - solo horn player for the Australian National Band, based in Canberra.

However, I cannot verify the existence of an Australian National Band (excuse my ignorance), merely an Australian National Band competition, in which some bands in Canberra have participated. There is apparently a brass player named Tim Girling who plays for the Salvation Army Band of Canberra. Does anyone know of this player? Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 05:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey mate, I have heard of that guy. He plays Solo Horn for Woden Valley Corps Band (a Salvation Army citadel in Canberra), but I'm not sure about the Australian National Band thing. -- Parradudes (talk) 00:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, Thumperward edited that whole section out as unsourced. He's probably right, in the absence of both widespread general knowledge and a quotable authority which evaluates players, lists of best players are conjectural, not encyclopedic. JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 06:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. --202.55.154.196 (talk) 05:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

French Horn Shape

There are also alto horns built in French horn shape:

product description on a manufacturer's page

Shouldn't this be included as well? -- megA (talk) 10:51, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I've edited to note that instrument is valved, moved morphological information out of History to Description, and added reference to Cerveny's unusually shaped Alto Horns. Jaxdelaguerre (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Description

Two conclusions currently expressed in Description

1. composers were discouraged from writing for the instrument due to intrinsic factors
2. market dominated by two makers

It seems to me that these two could be construed as controversial and/or tendentious and need external citation. JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 22:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 23 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) Fuortu (talk) 20:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

---

Alto horn → Tenor horn – By far the most common use of this instrument is in British brass bands; where it is called a Tenor Horn. Wikipedia:TITLEVAR says: "If a topic has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation, the title of its article should use that nation's variety of English". As the instrument's primarily use is in a type of band native to Britain, I'd argue that the title should be the one used in that nation. (Indeed, even in America, British-style brass bands use the name Tenor Horn.) TSP (talk) 16:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:26, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. It does seem silly to have an article that repeatedly states the instrument's most important use is in the UK, and yet uses a US variant name as its title. I didn't know that US brass bands used the UK terminology. That ought to be included somewhere in the article (with a reliable source, of course).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:50, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tenor horn

Dear Colleagues,

In my long years of professional musical experience on the US, I realized that the terminology concerning the saxhorn family in this country has shifted in a surprising way: American musicians call the alto horn a tenor horn; the tenor horn - a baritone; and the baritone - an euphonium. In Europe, "euphonium" is simply the other name of "baritone". The tenor horn (in B-flat) is a big deal in European wind orchestras, just open a score and you will see "Tenors in Si-bemol (B-flat) Tenor I, II, III. However, it is suspiciously absent from American concert band scores, and eventually my astonishment turned into a realization: Americans simply call the tenor horn "a baritone". So, it is present in American scores after all, but under the name of his cousin. Furthermore, the baritone is also present, but under the name of "euphonium". But that is not all; on the Wikipedia and elsewhere, the tenor horn is confused with an alto horn in Es, which is a smaller instrument that corresponds in function to the French horn (in E-flat and F). You will not see a European score which contains "Tenor horn in Es"; rather, this is the alto horn labeled as "Alhorn in Es" in German, or "Flicorno alto" in Italian. The tenor horn and the baritone are alike, they are both In B-flat, have the same range, and may substitute for each other. The difference is in the width of the bore which affects the tone a little. Again, in the US the tenor horn is called "a baritone", and the baritone is called "an euphonium". This explains those videos and talks about the difference between the baritone (tenor horn) and the euphonium (baritone). If you do not agree with the above statements, please open a European score for a large or middle size wind orchestra, and you will see those tenor horns in B-flat. If you manage to ever find a score including "Tenors in E-flat", I would revise my opinion on the Wikipedia article. Besides, they claim that the German name for "Tenor horn" is "Althorn". It is not; the Germans label the Tenor horn either as "Tenorhorn" or as "Bass-Flugelhorn". The latter term implies that it plays an octave below than the usual flugelhorn in B-flat.

Please, watch this 3-minute video on Tenor and Baritone, made by British performer Phil Dale from the Prince Regent's Band, and let me know what you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q&t=54s

Thank you for your attention.

Best regards,

Mutaeditor, 30 August, 2021 Mutaeditor (talk) 19:32, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for coming here to discuss this. I disagree with your premise, as I think you are talking about the wrong instrument. As the article makes clear, the instrument here described is the one in E-flat, called "tenor horn" in the UK and, as I understand it, correctly called "alto horn" in the US. So it is a simple British English vs American English thing: the BrE tenor horn is in E-flat and is the same as the AmE alto horn. I feel that the article does deal fairly well with the name differences and the fact that this, like much brass instrument nomenclature, is a mess. Should an additional note with an RS be added to say that "tenor horn" might mean something different elsewhere? I am not sure, maybe. But to add something which says that the entire existing article is wrong, because it is about the BrE tenor horn in E-flat, doesn't seem at all acceptable to me. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 20:22, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

It is not simply a difference between British English and American English

Dear DBak,

Thanks for your input, but I am afraid that you are not entirely right. You say "So it is a simple British English vs. American English thing: the BrE tenor horn is in E-flat and is the same as the AmE alto horn." The first video that I am posting below shows a British musician from The Prince Regents Band who shows a tenor horn in B-flat and calls it a "Tenor horn", comparing it to the baritone in B-flat. The second video shows you an American musician who shows an alto horn and calls it "a Tenor horn in E-flat in the British tradition or Alto horn in American tradition". This would be OK, but the same person also shows a Tenor horn and calls it "a Baritone". I wonder what Americans call "a Tenor horn", then? With the risk of your extracting the following phrase from my paragraph and say "this does not help your case", I will reiterate that there is no such thing as "a Tenor horn in E-flat". Check the British video again and you will witness the British tradition. Perhaps you have not looked and any scores for wind orchestra that come from Europe, because if you have, you will immediately realize that the Wiki article is generally wrong. No one should ever confuse a simple alto horn in E-flat with a tenor horn in B-flat. A quotation from the wiki:

"The tenor horn is a valved brass instrument (in E♭) which has a predominantly conical bore like the baritone horn and flugelhorn." Well, that is wrong from a general point of view. Also, "The tenor horn (British English; alto horn in American English, Althorn in Germany; occasionally referred to as E♭ horn) No one in Europe does occasionally refer to a Tenor as "E-flat horn"! If Americans also think the instrument in E-flat is an alto horn, and if the British video below shows that a tenor horn is in B-flat and the British are not confused either, who refers to the tenor as an E-flat instrument?

The correction in the Wiki article should be general, not cosmetic, and it should say that the Tenor horn is a B-flat instrument; that in Europe it is called "a Tenor horn" or a "Bass-flugelhorn", while in the US it is known as "a Baritone". On the other hand, what they call "Baritone" in Europe is known in the US as "an Euphonium". No mentioning of any alto horn is needed in this article. I bet you will sooner or later realize that I am right...

In a wind orchestra score, there are typically three tenor horns (American: baritones) in B-flat: I, II, III, the first playing a low melody or counterpoint, and the other two - harmonic voices. In a bass figure part of the composition, they may join the first bass to boost the line, or sometimes, the three tenors and the baritone may carry a low line in unison. There is also at least one Baritone (American: Euphonoum) which functions in the same way as the 1st Tenor.

Please, see the two videos below and let me know what you think"

1. A British musician thoughtfully explains the difference between Tenor in B-flat and Baritone in B-flat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q&t=55s

2. An American musician shows an alto horn and calls it "a Tenor horn in E-flat" (from a supposed British point of view), then shows a tenor horn and calls it "a baritone". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MJAs3pT01s&t=21s

Mutaeditor, 2 September 2021Mutaeditor (talk) 21:39, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello Mutaeditor and thank you for this. The article is about the E-flat horn which is pictured in its infobox photo. That's the thing like a small saxhorn, pitched in E-flat so its written C comes out a sixth lower. That is the instrument that the article is about and it makes this clear, repeatedly. I believe that yes, it is indeed a pretty simple BrE/AmE issue, because this article, like our Baritone horn article, uses the current BrE terminology, just as we do in the UK in the brass band, jazz, or whatever. So that instrument, the smallish saxhorn that is next down in pitch under the Bb flugelhorn, is indeed a tenor horn in the UK and an alto horn in the US, unless the US speaker is deliberately using British-style terminology, perhaps in a brass band context.

What I think of your two videos (as requested):

1. It's great, but he is an original-instruments player from an original-instruments band. He is not playing a current tenor horn: he is showing us the old instruments that he plays in the band. It sounds as if he would probably call their E-flat horn an alto, but he would also know that this is not current mainstream BrE usage. He is not showing us the instrument that this article is about, and what he says on terminology does not really relate to this article. I did really like this clip, thank you, and will show it and others from The Prince Regent's Band to the children I teach.

2. Lovely. He is not an American, but a New Zealander, and uses NZ English which is close to BrE, and is talking about NZ brass band terminology which is the same as BrE brass band. So he is absolutely correctly showing us a tenor horn in E-flat and then a baritone in B-flat. His terminology is perfect and exactly in tune with our Tenor Horn article in its current form.

While we are sharing links you might want to look at:

• Kate Westbrook a jazz tenor horn player on her E-flat tenor horn
• Sheona White an eminent tenor horn player and teacher, with her E-flat tenor horn
• Here is a shop selling tenor horns, in E-flat, also in BrE. We bought about 40 of those: they are quite good.
• Here is a rather more famous maker where you can buy E-flat tenor horns and B-flat baritones.
• The Grove Music Online Tenor Horn article says, A valved brass instrument of alto pitch, like a small euphonium in shape; in British brass band scores it is usually referred to as ‘E♭ horn’. and goes on later to say The instrument of the brass band that stands in B♭, a 4th below the tenor horn, is known in Britain and the USA as the ‘baritone’ and in Germany as Tenorhorn (see Baritone). and that (see) link goes to their Baritone article, as described.
• Grove / Oxford also have an article "Tenor Horn (jazz)" which simply confirms this, and at their article Alto Horn they do it again with American term for a valved brass instrument pitched in E♭ below the cornet and employed in some wind bands; its form is upright, often with the bell turned forward. It is equivalent to the English Tenorhorn.

Have you got the Cliff Bevan book? It's really about tubas, and I can't lay my hands on it right now, but I have a bit of a feeling that he gets into the saxhorn terminology a bit, and is maybe referenced by others.

So yes, it really is pretty much a simple question of BrE and AmE terminology. This article is not about B-flat instruments at all: it is about the E-flat instrument which we in the UK and Commonwealth and brass bands call a tenor horn, and that Americans not deliberately using that language will probably call an alto horn. The article uses the BrE term but explains the AmE one clearly. This language variation is a royal pain sometimes, all over the place, and even worse in a messy area like brass terminology, but we mostly cope with it through the joys of WP:ENGVAR.

I hope this helps. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 19:36, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

PS I had to step in and attempt to impersonate a sarrusophone on a gig a few months ago. This was a new experience ... probably a first and last! :)

Change the title of article

Dear Colleagues,

It looks as if some musicians in Great Britain (not all), call the alto horn "a tenor horn" which is wrong in comparison with the rest of the world. I suggest that you open some European scores for wind orchestra and see in there the parts for Tenor, I, II, and III in B-flat (which in USA would mean Baritone I, II, III in B-flat). What Europeans call a baritone is known under "euphonium" in Europe. If you tell a German musician, or an Italian, Russian, French, Dutch, Eastern European in general - that the tenor horn is an instrument pitched in E-flat, they will be astounded, the least to say...

This is why I am very sorry for the provincial explanation in the Grove dictionary which obviously reflects what is thought of in some British bands as "Tenor horn", dismissing the fact that worldwide this instrument is considered an alto horn. That is not only a pity, it sends a wrong signal to the entire world. On the other hand, if they rephrase this by saying that "the alto horn, an instrument pitched in E-flat and corresponding in function to the French horn, is known in Great Britain bands as "tenor horn in E-flat", that would partially clear the confusion...

Therefore, I have a proposition for some of you: you are right that the Wiki article is about an instrument pitched in E-flat. Just do not call it "a tenor horn, "but changed the name of the same article to "Alto Horn". Then everything will fall in place and the vast majority of the world will know what you are talking about. This does not prevent you from stating that in some Great Britain bands they call the alto horn "a tenor horn in E-flat". :)

To summarize: In Europe - tenor horn = baritone in USA; in Europe - baritone = euphonium in USA; in Europe - alto horn = alto horn in USA. And for those of you who still insist that the alto horn should be called "a tenor horn" in Great Britain, I am pasting the British video again, where a British instrumentalist very clearly shows and calls "Tenor horn" an instrument in B-flat, comparing it to the slightly wider baritone. About this vide you say: "It's great, but he is an original-instruments player from an original-instruments band. He is not playing a current tenor horn: he is showing us the old instruments that he plays in the band. It sounds as if he would probably call their E-flat horn an alto, but he would also know that this is not current mainstream BrE usage." I do not sense the logic here; that he is an original instrumentalist from an original instruments-band does not make him wrong by saying that a tenor horn is an instrument in B-flat; this is what all the world thinks except from some parts of Great Britain and The Common Wealth, as you say. No, these are not "old-fashioned instruments" who have lost their application nowadays. Germans still produce oval shaped tenors and baritones like those, vs. the American baritones and euphoniums. Thanks for your attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q&t=58s

Best regards,

Mutaeditor, 8 September, 2021Mutaeditor (talk) 18:13, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

For the record, I am opposed to this change, especially after carefully rereading this entire Talk page, but I am finished discussing this matter for now. Best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Presentation of the Alto Horn by a British instrumentalist

Dear Colleagues,

Please take a look at this video, where a British instrumentalist presents the alto horn (in E-flat), and compare to the video below it, where another British instrumentalist presents the tenor horn and the baritone (both in B-flat, of course). These two presentations summarize the view of almost the entire musical world about the alto, tenor and baritone horns, including the British Regent's orchestra instrumentalists (at least), and makes strange the claim of some other British musicians that an alto horn should be called "a tenor horn in E-flat". No, there is no such thing, and if Wikipedia wants to clear its reputation, it should reflect the worldwide opinion on the alto and tenor horns, and not the limited, peculiar interpretation shared by some people on the isle. Is Wikipedia supposed to be a reflection of provincial, uncommon, and highly questionable views of some of its members, or is it supposed to be a reflection of what the vast majority of musicians around the world (including some British musicians) think? If it is the later, then the title Tenor Horn should be changed to Alto Horn, and everything will fall in place. No, it is not about the difference between British English and American English interpretation; it is about the difference between the musical world and a limited circle of British musicians. Compare to saxophones (except the Baritone Sax):

Alto sax is in E-flat, and Alto horn is in E-flat.

Tenor sax is in B-flat, and Tenor horn is in B-flat. I think that, originally, these instruments (saxes, tenor and alto horns) may have been invented or improved by the same maker (hence the name Saxhorns for the latter).

The British Regent's Band on Alto horn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4-pOZp78wA

The British Regent's Band on Tenor horn and baritone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q

Mutaeditor, 13 September, 2021.Mutaeditor (talk) 00:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

This is a rehash of the same item above. —C.Fred (talk) 01:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Versions of the alto horn

Hi, I was wondering if I should add some info on versions of the alto horn such as the double bell alto horn, Over the shoulder alto horn, and marching alto horn. The actinium is mentioned, but I wanted to see if this info would be notable enough to add to the page. Ryan56DCIfan (talk) 16:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

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